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  • Can someone explain to me why certain services ask for an up-to-date browser?

    I mostly use Maxthon 5.3.8.0000 and Opera 36.x on a Windows XP SP3 machine (for reasons I won't get into here - but its not because I can't afford a new machine), with Maxthon being my main browser. There are some services, like YouTube Studio (for uploading and editing your videos) that state that their services does not run properly with the browser I currently have and that it would be best to update it.

    My beef with this is that my browser is HTML5 compliant (as it has no problem rendering <video> or <audio> tags correctly with its own native audio and video player, for example) and therefore the service or company I am trying to access is going outside the remit of any HTML5 specifications which causes issues for me and maybe others (or those that refuse to update to the latest and greatest crapware).

    I have always been suspicious of these claims that my browser is out of date and firmly believe that a browser that fully supports HTML5 should not be forced to be updated UNLESS it is proven (with a capital P) that an update is necessary for the 'security of my machine' (yeah, up yours too asshats). I also believe that updates are more to do with those companies trying to foist their rubbish code/websites/services/ etc onto me than to give me a 'pleasant and 'safe' browsing experience'. After all, we never had computer viruses until Microsoft came along..... So can some please answer me as to what the real reaso is to update??? (Maybe not the actual question I want to ask but its along those lines - the actual question would be somewhere along the lines of 'Why update? Prove to me that I need an updated browser to access your lazily created content or service).
    Last edited by judgedredd; May 18, 2021, 10:30 PM.

  • #2
    HTML 5 might not be the only thing a browser has to support, there are also other background processes a site might use, such as web workers, for example. But it could as well be plain laziness by the developers. I once removed the user agent string from my browser and when accessing Gmail it would complain that my browser isn’t supported; they simply checked the UA string to determine that everything that’s not one of the major browsers and fairly recent versions isn’t supported. So, you might get around that YouTube warning by simply changing the UA string to something they know.
    Stop solving problems you don’t yet have!

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    • #3
      Well, that's an easy way to deal with this problem. Thanks for answering VIPStephan .

      Comment


      • #4
        Uses browsers ranging from 6 to 20 years out of date, wonders why modern sites don't support you. Uh-huh... Right.

        As VIPStephan said, newer features don't exist in those browsers, so if the developer wants to use them, they have to tell outdated browser engines -- like Trident and Webkit (Your two Maxthon choices) to sod off. IE in particular, though with Webkit (and by extension Safari) aging like milk ever since Google absconded with all the talent? Yeah, good luck with that.

        Around two-thirds of modern JavaScript code will not run in ANY version of Trident. Hell, IE10/earlier will crash the entire JavaScript just because it doesn't know what arrow functions are. Don't even get me started about bleeding-edge techniques like array destructuring or null-coalescing operators.

        As web developers we can't bend over backwards to support the bleeding edge of 2001 browser techniques forever. It's why my policy for all versions of IE moving forwards on sites is to not send them any CSS or scripting whatsoever.

        That said, given changes to TLS/SSL and patching of holes/insecure code on the JavaScript side of things, it CAN be a legitimate claim when it comes to a "safe browsing experience". See how many legacy versions of IE and FF can no longer actually access modern HTTPS websites.
        Last edited by deathshadow; May 19, 2021, 06:19 PM.
        Walk the dark path, sleep with angels, call the past for help.
        https://cutcodedown.com
        https://medium.com/@deathshadow

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        • #5
          deathshadow I appreciate your input, yet what are websites really all about? Conveying information - whether it be via text, audio or video. So why make it so bloody complicated? Audios and videos play without any hitch in any of the browsers I have (Opera, Chromium, FireFox 15, and Maxthon).

          Doing something within a browser to media (like video editing à laYouTube Studio) is where the problems start. And plugging (or correcting) so-called 'security leaks' is also a reason why things go pear shaped. In my view that is plain lazy programming or done deliberately to keep the anti-virus and computer security industry going or to keep people in jobs. Case in point - around 2005 it was reported that a company in Israel had created a version of Windows XP that was hack proof. After that was proven to be true Micorsoft came along and bought out the company for $2 billion. The info about that has been purged from the 'net (I know, as I tried looking for the info for my site and couldn't find it so I only have the memory of seeing it on the news and then reading about it online). And who created crappy software, which became the norm in the software world, in the first place that nearly everyone in the end uses or has used? Microsoft.

          Ever had to update a calculator program/app? No, I haven't either. Not even on my iPad, which is notorious for having apps that need constant updating (I have two calculators on my iPad). So why this 'update' bull she hit it? I believe its because the software is written by lazy people (who may not realize they are lazy) or written with lazy procedures. I have Steve Gibson's Spinrite 6.0 (paid for) which hasn't changed in over 15 (?) years. Have I had to update it? No. Yet it still fixes hard drive issues with drives that have technology 15 years (or more) further down the pipe from when it was written.

          If a group of individuals were able to create an unhackable version of a software product from one of the nastiest software companies in the world, then I believe that any program can be written today in a way that can be used by XP all the way to Win 10 for all current browsing experiences. The fact that this doesn't happen is, I believe, pure pig headedness. Developers are also forced to abandon certain technologies (32bit programming being one of them) by Microsoft and Apple due to this upgrade BS because 'XP is no longer supported' (by Microsoft). So what? It still bloody works! Sometimes better than even Windows 10 machines (I've had them running side by side and I have observed, sometimes, how much better my XP machine runs than a Windows 10 machine).

          As to ‘security updates’ why does everyone think that this is a good thing? Has anyone observed an update process taking place on a Windows 10 machine? If you have, why is stuff being sent to Microsoft?

          Or, does anyone actually know what is being downloaded into the computer when it is being updated? How about, for example, subliminal algorithms that appear on screen unseen to the conscious mind but seen by the unconscious mind and able to be observed when the screen is tilted in a particular way? It used to be more observable on TFT screens and is harder to see on modern screens, but that - so hard it - is still being downloaded.

          Most people seem to be making presumptions and assumptions about things in the computer world and the industry takes full advantage of it.

          People are extremely creative which is why I think that if there was a law in place that said that 4MB of memory is the maximum a computer could have, we would be watching the same stuff on our screens and doing the same things because new ways would have been figured out as to how to do stuff with that limitation. Hell, if the chaps at NASA and Apollo 13 were able to get home by cobbling together some ‘mailbox’ contraption out of socks, duct tape, bits of plastic from manuals and some other components, to scrub carbon dioxide out of the air then we can bloody well make browsers that can be used on 32 bit or 64 bit machines and can do everything that ‘modern’ browsers can do.

          Maybe I'll look for a Java based browser....
          Last edited by judgedredd; Jun 25, 2021, 04:27 PM.

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          • #6
            That 4mb number really shows you don't understand much of any of this; given a single 1080p frame is 7.9megs. With a codec like H.264 or VP9 it takes three times that just to decode one frame from the data stream given the separate luma and chroma. Double that again so you have double buffering to avoid tearing. Typically one also wants around 16-32 frames buffered so that if the system bogs down the video doesn't halt/jitter. And that's miinimums.

            You try playing 4k video on a 32 bit XP machine at 60fps? Yeah, good luck with that.

            The same for security. Do you remember MS Blaster? What, are we supposed to just leave these gaping holes open? I wonder, if a pre XP SP1 machine were connected to the web, would it still shutdown within five minutes? Probably not, nobody's dumb enough to use vanilla XP at this point. Even the holdouts are up to SP3.

            Where are we supposed to draw the magical line? Are we REALLY supposed to still support 386's with Windows 3.1? Of course not. And that's what being expected to support XP is like.

            It's the same for 32 bit programming. When it comes to memory moves it's HALF as efficient (the real reason for it), it has fewer usable registers (AMD was smart) and often now due to certain extensions to the spec (SSE3 and 4) it takes more code to do the same job because 32 bit x86 lacks dozens of new opcodes you have to brute force, making 32 bit code slower and harder to maintain... and less reliable!

            The extra registers -- r8 through r16 -- making it far easier as well to support well coded multi-platform code, given that ARM and PPC have 16 registers to work with. Sure, 4 of the x64 registers have reserved purposes clearly defined thanks to the x86 legacy, but you'd need that type of register use on other platforms anyways. It drags x86 kicking and screaming into allowing for more modern, flexible, and speedy code.

            To that end, it may be time to put x86 to bed. I'm not wild about ARM, but x86 is as big a drag on progress as posixisms at this point!

            And seriously, at this point I'll stack Win10 against XP any day... once I add openShell and 7 task tweaker to drag the UI back to "usable". Takes more hardware to get in the door, but do you REALLY want to be relying on 20 year old tech when the entire industry has been based around 3 years being obsolete, 5 years is the scrapheap?
            Walk the dark path, sleep with angels, call the past for help.
            https://cutcodedown.com
            https://medium.com/@deathshadow

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm not stupid enough to watch 1080p videos on a screen that is 720 in height and has 72 pixels per inch resolution. If I had a 1920 x 1080 screen yes, I might do that. People, on the most part are not aware of the screen limitations or even what size their screen is and 'the indistry' takes full advantage of that ignorance. If I had a 4K tv then, and only then, would I consider watching 4k movies on it, but at the sizes these movies come in at the only way I would do that is if I were to buy Blu Ray disc movies. Downloading a 60+GB movie off the 'net would be an extremely dumb move.

              Your comment about getting Win10 .... that intrigues me. I suppose those items (openShell and 7 task tweaker) are easy to find?

              As to updating just for the sake of it.... The computer industry is the least 'green' industry there is. Everyone seems to be bellyaching about sustainability not realising that their precious iPhone and other products like it are the main cause of the wasteful nature of computing. The constant 'upgrading' that goes on with them is what needs to change. People who caterwaul about these issues go blithely along with this update madness not realizing that they are the ones causing this wasteful industry to do what it does.

              I am not sure if I have my facts straight on the next point, but during my research I came across the PROMIS scandal - a piece of software created to organize all the disparate systems used by the US government - which was then converted to clandestine use by the US and other governments and the developer/creator of the PROMIS software was never compensated for it.

              This chap, at least I think it was him - its so long ago that I read about him that I may have him mixed up with someone else, also created a language that could communicate with all other computer langauges so that a machine that had an old FORTRAN system could easily work with a modern 64bit Linux system. All I remember is the guys first name - Hal, as its the same as the HAL9000 in 2001 - a Space Odyssey, which is why I remember it. So why hasn't his language 'taken over the world'? Because of vested interests, and a whole slew of other reasons.

              I think that the languages used today to create operating systems are clunky as hell, are 'old' and very limited technologies and are the least efficient of all the ways of doing things.

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              • #8
                @judgedredd,
                I think that the languages used today to create operating systems are clunky as hell, are 'old' and very limited technologies and are the least efficient of all the ways of doing things.
                Far from being “old and clunky” most have matured with user optional features to make programming easier to bypass strict error checking.

                Suggestions to use PHP Strict_types and maximum error reporting are considered unnecessary, same for HTML and CSS validation.

                Sweeping errors and warnings under the carpet is usually a temporary fix to reduce workload. Yes the task is completed quickly but unfortunately Bugs fester and grow resulting in extra debugging time usually covered with unpaid maintenance… and usually the root cause of all forum posts

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by judgedredd View Post
                  I'm not stupid enough to watch 1080p videos on a screen that is 720 in height and has 72 pixels per inch resolution.
                  Last time I had a display on a computer that was below 768px tall was probably 1994. I was running 1024x768 or higher over 25 years ago on Winblows 3.1! (with the 8514 / large font setting)

                  Well, I guess there's my first gen tablet at 1280x600, but that's in the back of my sock drawer next to the Atari Portfolio for a reason.

                  Hell, I've been 1440p+ for over a decade almost across the board. Lowest res device I have is my 6" cubot phone, and that's 1080p at around 450ppi.

                  Lands sake, even five year old sub $100 phones are at or even pushing past 720p now. For example the Cubot King Kong I just gifted a friend who had nothing: $90 phone with a 720p IPS

                  Originally posted by judgedredd View Post
                  Downloading a 60+GB movie off the 'net would be an extremely dumb move.
                  A well encoded rip of a 4k source and/or a streamed copy tops out at around 5 gigs, not 60. The only reason blu-rays are so wasteful is they still insist on using the horrifically outdated MPEG2 encoding just like DVD's, a technology that was out of date five years before DVD's were invented. A codec that was only used back then because it could run on a potato chip "maximizing profit"... aka letting them charge $600+ when they were a new tech for $50 worth of hardware.

                  Originally posted by judgedredd View Post
                  Your comment about getting Win10 .... that intrigues me. I suppose those items (openShell and 7 task tweaker) are easy to find?
                  https://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu
                  Drags Windows 10's garbage "start" back to Win 7 or even XP styling and usability.

                  https://rammichael.com/7-taskbar-tweaker
                  Enhances taskbar behaviors. I mostly use it for better "stack style" behavior of multiple windows of the same app, and that it lets me enlarge the Win10 icons to the size they were under 8/earlier.

                  Hoping Windows 11 won't dick with this stuff to make it even worse.

                  Originally posted by judgedredd View Post
                  As to updating just for the sake of it.... The computer industry is the least 'green' industry there is. Everyone seems to be bellyaching about sustainability not realising that their precious iPhone and other products like it are the main cause of the wasteful nature of computing. The constant 'upgrading' that goes on with them is what needs to change. People who caterwaul about these issues go blithely along with this update madness not realizing that they are the ones causing this wasteful industry to do what it does.
                  I agree to an extent, but honestly as a vintage PC collector I know that the number of functioning machines that are more than five years old is shockingly low, and it's because of simple heat death. Silicon is NOT some amazing long lasting material when subjected to electricity. Worse though are support components like capacitors which are ALWAYS a ****-show, especially power caps. This has gotten better over time, but in all practical reality computer technologies are not like that 1930's tabletop fan where you replace the bearing and it's good as new.

                  In that way, I think people who are able to still run older devices have a nasty case of survivorship bias.

                  That said, some companies like crApple are exacerbating that situation with their planned obsolescence and dirtbag proprietary practices. Soldering the battery and storage into devices? REALLY? And people light money on fire buying their rinky crap? Honestly when people talk about Apple "quality" I genuinely have ZERO huffing clue what the blazes they're talking about! Talk about sipping the tainted flavor-aid!!!

                  Originally posted by judgedredd View Post
                  I am not sure if I have my facts straight on the next point, but during my research I came across the PROMIS scandal - a piece of software created to organize all the disparate systems used by the US government - which was then converted to clandestine use by the US and other governments and the developer/creator of the PROMIS software was never compensated for it.
                  There's so much 100% grade A farm fresh BS in regards to that (now long dead) 1970's mainframe wreck. It was literally irrelevant any time after 1982, most of the code the Hamilton's used in making their baseline they stole from other projects, and their legal case was much akin to Stallman's sour grapes over when he gave away some code and then got his panties in a knot when someone else used it to make money.

                  The ONLY reason the courts found in their favor -- which is oft held up in ridicule by IT professionals -- is the utter ignorance of the courts in the 1970's when it came to technical topics, and the utter incompetence of the government's lawyers.

                  It doesn't help that Pfister and Cavli's book about it threw utter gibberish conspiracy theory nonsense on top without a lick of evidence to support their claims. Speculative sensationalist fiction is not fact. Particularly when said authors knew about as much about computers and communications as a six year old does fornicating. Well, unless that kid's a Catholic alter boy... what? Too soon?

                  Originally posted by judgedredd View Post
                  This chap, at least I think it was him - its so long ago that I read about him that I may have him mixed up with someone else, also created a language that could communicate with all other computer langauges so that a machine that had an old FORTRAN system could easily work with a modern 64bit Linux system. All I remember is the guys first name - Hal, as its the same as the HAL9000 in 2001 - a Space Odyssey, which is why I remember it. So why hasn't his language 'taken over the world'? Because of vested interests, and a whole slew of other reasons.
                  Sounds like BS. Most likely that's BS... but that depends on what "works with" actually MEANS. Since that could mean almost anything. I've got 64 bit Linux machines at one client's that are talking to ASA-400 machines... because RS-232 in the terminal is still RS-232.

                  Any language can communicate with any other language, so what the blazes does that even MEAN? It's the type of fairy tale nonsense people who know nothing about computers make up to SOUND more important or more skilled than they actually are to the normies. A typical "glittering generality".

                  Originally posted by judgedredd View Post
                  I think that the languages used today to create operating systems are clunky as hell, are 'old' and very limited technologies and are the least efficient of all the ways of doing things.
                  I don't know if I'd call C and C++ "clunky" or "limited". It's about as bare metal as you can get without resorting to assembly and ending up platform limited. I dislike how cryptic C syntax is, but at least it's uniform and well known. Windows? C++. Linux? C++. Darwin (the core under OSX) and the majority of OSX / iOS components? C++.

                  Sure M$ uses some C# here and there for less time intensive tasks, and Apple uses their "Objective C"... but those are still basically C/C++ derivatives.

                  If anything is old and holding things back, it's POSIX-isms.
                  Walk the dark path, sleep with angels, call the past for help.
                  https://cutcodedown.com
                  https://medium.com/@deathshadow

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi deathshadow, I just did a double-check of my screen resolution and I made an error. Its 1280 x 800 not 720 as I reported (not sure where I got that figure from).

                    All your other points made are fair. Thanks for the input, especially your Windows 10 tools..

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