getting ripped off by client... help?

[gbdee303]

To make a long story short I built a site for this person. I did it in my free time, ridiculously cheap. I posted it one day, they said it was great and that they would come over and pay me that day. After the third day they didn't pay, I ended up taking the site down. They noticed, then decided to call and said they would pay me soon, but I needed to put the site up and make a couple minor changes. Now they had someone change the site for them, using my header images and menu and overall feel of the site. I have a feeling she ain't paying me.

What can you do about someone using your intellectual property without your permission?

I know it is against the law, but can you do anything about it? sue? press charges?

She also used images that were stolen from the internet.

I do not have a legitimate web design business, I am a student.
I do have full licenses for the software I used to build the site. (studioMX)

Could someone with experience with this type of thing please fill me in?

[Spudhead]

AFAIK, unless you've got something in writing that states she'd pay you x for doing y, then you're a bit stuck. Although the law relating to IP is a little unclear, however, you should be able to make a case if you can prove that work she's using was created by you.

I'd get some legal advice mate.

[bcarl314]

It depends on how far you want to take this, but if your serious about getting the money, the first step is to officially copyright the images. Do a google search for US copyright or go here .

Once you've got the copyright, you have a legal claim that would stand up in court.

Next you right a letter to this cleint explaining that they have not paid for the site and that they need to either pay up or discontinue use of your work or face legal action.

You'll need to give them a "reasonable" time period to make a decision before you proceed, which is usually 30 days.

After that, go and talk to legal concil, if you're going to pursue this in court, you'll need help.

One thing to consider, did you get any of this agreement in writing? It will be a tremendous advantage if you did. If you didn't, both sides will claim ownership, and that's where the copyright will help you. If you copyrigthed the images / html / whatever, they have very few options. They can say that you "said you'd let them use the images" but if they can't provide a contract to that effect, that claim is worthless in court.

I do need to let you know that IANAL, however I have dealt with these types of issues in the past and usually getting the copyright and sending the notice helps. I also ALWAYS do 2 things with each client.
1) Get them to sign a web design agreement of some type clearly stating the work to be done and the price.

2) Require a certain percent of the total to be paid up front as a non-refundable deposit.

These save me a lot of head aches.

[DougBTX]

Originally posted by bcarl314
the first step is to officially copyright the images.

You'd probably spend more on the courts than you'd get for the website design work :[ (especially if it is a "ridiculously cheap" site in the first place...)

As for making a copyright "official", don't you have it as soon as you make the thing?

Later,
Douglas

[gbdee303]

Have you actually copyrighted an html page before? The images they put on the site (their "update") and the images they provided me are just taken from the net. I see on the site it says "Visual arts" as one of the types, but website or html is not listed below. The idea that they are trying to steal my idea makes me very angry and I will try to fight them if I can. How long does it take to obtain a copyright?

Thanks for everyones input

[perfect circle]

You may find some usefull information here:

http://www.rightsforartists.com/

-Good Luck

[oracleguy]

Although this is a little mean, if you still have access to the server, just go on there, download it to your machine for back-up purposes and then delete all the files that belong to you. Once they pay you, give the files back to them.

Next time, get it in writing. Make sure you state what your doing, and how long it will take, and how much your charging. Then state when payment is due and such. Also put in clauses for the event that they want minor changes done once your finished and how much that will cost etc. Additionally, I would consider getting a down payment first, say 20% of the estimated cost. It couldn't hurt to have some one with a little legal background take a look at the contract you write up, do you know anyone who is a lawyer? Get some free advice that way maybe. Try searching the forum for web design costs, there have been some good threads over the last couple years.

[Shift4Sms]

To me it sounds like your basically hosed (unless you have spare cash around for legal fees). While you can remove all your work from the site, the fact that they got someone else to make some mods leads me to believe that they (or at least this new guy) has already made a backup of all the files -- you deleting the files will serve as nothing more than an annoyance.

You can squawk all you want but it sounds like this will end up being just a "learning experience". Get it in writing and a down payment first.

Sorry.

[gbdee303]

O.k. I found out to copyright a website and it is a long process. Normally I would draw up a contract but this was for a friend's girlfriend who I trusted. She changed the password to the server, so I can't remove my items. Say hypothetically I decided to hack the ftp site and just delete everything, could anything happen to me? Its my work afterall. She might have backed up my files, but I think she is too stupid to make them work again if they are removed. I have definitley learned a lesson here but I am a rather vengeful person and I would sleep better at night if I "won". I really appreciate everyones input in this.

[oracleguy]

Originally posted by gbdee303
Say hypothetically I decided to hack the ftp site and just delete everything, could anything happen to me? Its my work afterall.

It would be illegal but like most have said, your hosed. Unless you know something we all don't, it will be quite difficult to just hack the server.

[bcarl314]

One thing that may be an inexpensive option, go to your local OfficeMax or something and buy a pack of really nice legal sized paper.

Next, look online for legle forms, and samples of legal documents. Pay attention to format, where to put your name and the name of the person your contacting.

Then open up your word processor and create a legal "looking" document with a nice header. Make sure the header is a Serif font (Times New Roman comes to mind) with your business name (if you have one) and your address and telephone number.

Write a nice friendly threatening letter (I know, it's an oxymoron) explaining that you have ownership of the images / site and unless prompt payment is made you will be forced to persue legal action. Don't ask for anything outrageos like $100,000 or something, but ask for "reasonable compensation". Logically work out what that is and explain it to this person. Typical web design rates vary from anywhere between $15 / hour all the way up to $150 / hour for advanced progamming. Figure out what you think your worth, then multiply that by the number of hours you spent of the project. Finally, and this is the clicher, give them a chance at a "significantly reduced" rate if they pay by such and such a date. This fulfills your "redicously cheap" agreement, and obligates them to pay while allowing you to up the cost later if they don't.

Sign and date the document and make sure you put something like "cc: file" on the bottom and make a copy for yourself.

Make sure your envelope is machine printed as well, to hand write the address and return address, print it out from your printer.

Go to the post office and send it Certified Mail with Return receipt.

Total cost should be about $10 ($6 for the paper, which you can user later, and $4 for mailing).

The impression a certified letter and legal looking document gives can be very persuasive. Make sure you send the letter with return receipt. It's really an impression when someone has to sign that they got your letter, and you now have legal proof that the letter was delivered and they received it.

This is going to be the most you can do without getting a lawyer. Well, except for getting the copyright on the images. I copyrighted some images a while back, it's not too hard and only costs about $25 per image. Maybe go and get one of the important images copyrighted would be a good idea. I strongly suggest you at least do that.

Otherwise, you can just let the whole thing go. In the end, it's up to you, but I'd think if your talking over $100 for this, it's worth an hour or 2 of your time.

<edit>
Note: According to this page the current fee is $30 per image. You need to use Form VA or Short Form VA.
</edit>

[Shift4Sms]

Originally posted by gbdee303
Say hypothetically I decided to hack the ftp site and just delete everything, could anything happen to me? Its my work afterall.

Morally, I think you would be justified. The problem is that morality and legality do not go hand-in-hand and this course of action would be illegal.

Think of it like a football game. A lineman jumps the gun a lays out the quarterback before the snap. The qb gets up and kicks the lineman in the private parts. Both are in the wrong even though most people would feel that the qb was justified (well I guess this depends on which team you are rooting for!).

[Roy Sinclair]

Your work was effectively stolen just like the images they are using so: Contact the hosting ISP and inform them (preferably in writing) that the content on that web site is stolen, a responsible ISP will shut down any site using stolen content.

The site may end up back out there on some other hosting service but you'll have the satisfaction of making this person work for it and possbily costing them all payments made for the hosting services, loss of their account with that ISP and other grief.

[oracleguy]

Originally posted by Roy Sinclair
Your work was effectively stolen just like the images they are using so: Contact the hosting ISP and inform them (preferably in writing) that the content on that web site is stolen, a responsible ISP will shut down any site using stolen content.

The site may end up back out there on some other hosting service but you'll have the satisfaction of making this person work for it and possbily costing them all payments made for the hosting services, loss of their account with that ISP and other grief.

Now that sounds like a good idea.

[gbdee303]

That is a good idea. Will they beleieve me though? Has anyone done this?